Energy use is the basis of being well off. Poor sucks. Rich, not so sucky.

If the UK went net zero by 2050, the impact right now on climate would be zero.

So we would literally impoverish ourselves and do no good. That's just stupid.

Polar bears was this iconic species. We'd probably estimate there is less than 10,000 polar bear. Today that number is up around 26,000. So we've

seen a dramatic increase. Why?

Hello, I'm Fraser Myers, Deputy Editor of Spikes.

I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by Bjorn Lomborg.

Bjorn's written a prolific amount of books and articles on the climate issue, on the environment.

Most recently, Best Things First and False Alarm.

Bjorn, welcome.

That's great to be here. Thank you.

Bjorn, we're at a time when I think it's fair to say that skepticism towards net zero and climate policy has gone mainstream. We have Donald Trump in the US, talking and saying

drill baby drill.

Even in the UK, the Conservative Party, which actually introduced Net Zero into the UK law,

has gone cold on the idea.

Is this a welcome development in your view?

It certainly is good that we're now more realistic.

Remember, climate change is a real problem, but it's not

this end of the world that it's been sold. And the problem with this whole conversation is when you think

this is the end of the world, when you think this is a meteor hurtling towards Earth, nothing else

matters. And that's, of course, how the conversation has been for the last 10, 15 years.

The world is ending, so we just got to do everything and pay whatever it costs. That has led to a lot of really, really bad policies. Now, it's still a problem. So we shouldn't throw everything out

...