Hi, welcome to Havla's podcast. I'm Havla Cunningham, your host, and we are jumping into the series that we are,

well, we're tackling moral failure in the church. We're looking at the complications,

how we can do it better,

and maybe even helping those of you that have never experienced it

and have a lot of judgment around it,

maybe helping you understand the humanity of it,

as well as maybe some of the blind spots

that we haven't really acknowledged.

So I'm really excited about this conversation.

In our last episode, I really went through

some biblical ideas around this, some structure in which God gives us to handle certain things like this.

That can be taken well or actually used as control and manipulation, so we looked at all of that but I felt like it was

important that I didn't just teach and train or or maybe you know talk about the idea

but I wanted to have real conversations around this and I don't have

first experience and I do have a friend a dear friend that has experience around

this and you know her because she's been on the Ennagram episode podcast.

But Debbie Mays, my friend is here and she's not just a friend,

she's actually part of my leadership team at Wonder.

She also is a mom of four, four kids, she's married, and she is a

business owner among other things, like this woman is, she's amazing. She also

has her own personal brand. So there's so many things

going on but I mostly love what I love about Debbie is is that there's a part of

...