Hey friend, thanks for joining me for Java with Julie. I'm Julie Slatery, and this podcast is a production of authentic intimacy, a ministry dedicated to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. Today I got to sit down with my friend Michelle Kushat, who is always a joy. Michelle has been on several episodes of Java with Julie before, and one of those

episodes, when life becomes undone, is featured in our newest Java pack, Learning to Trust.

We'll link to that in our show notes, and I hope you'll check it out. Michelle has recently

written a book called Relentless, in which she takes a look back at her own suffering, times when

she felt alone, abandoned, and even despairing of her own life, and calms through those times to

find evidence of God's presence with her. You'll hear Michelle say that you and I can withstand

just about anything as long as we know we're not alone. So how do we find God in our suffering?

How can you know he's there and that he cares? Let's head to the coffee shop.

Hey, Michelle, my good friend is having coffee with me. I love it. I know. I know. You know, I would hang out with you even without doing an interview, but how much more fun that we get to do this at this new time? We do hang out without doing interviews. That is true. Yeah, but I'm in Colorado, and you're one of the highlights to get to see you and hear about your new book, which I've read and endorsed.

Which is always amazing to me. There's a lot of people to interview me that have never read it. So,

who does to you for actually reading it? Well, I don't read every book that I have to interview people on, but...

But since I'm your friend, you kind of have to.

Well, and it's a great book. Oh, thank you for that.

Yeah, actually, I got an advance copy to review, and I think it was like even just like pages.

And I sent it to a friend right away because I'm like, you need this.

I had immediately thought of so many people I knew that needed that book.

And I'm glad to be able to talk about it with you today because I know that and those listening are going to be

blessed. When I think about you, Michelle, I think about a few other people that I know who, to me,

represent the fact that God isn't fair. You can say like it, yeah.

Yeah, not fair.

No, and when I say that I mean it because all of us have trials in our lives,

but there's some people we know that seem to have trial after trial, after trial, after trial,

...