Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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And so here I reached out to Jonathan Height, who is a professor of ethical leadership at NYU's

Stern School of Business. He's a very well-known psychologist. Many of you know his work and

taught at UVA for many years. And he's the author of the Happiness Hypothesis and the Righteous Mind.

He and I have collided with one another on a number of occasions, and this conversation could have

gone either way. I was, you know, I was not surprised that it was as successful as it was, but

it was a risk like many of these things are, and this one paid off. We come out of a history of

strong and even ad-homonym criticism of one another, and we make progress. I now give you John Height.

Well, I'm here with Jonathan Height. John, thanks for coming on the podcast.

My pleasure, Sam. I'm looking forward to it.

Well, listen, before we get into topics about which we agree, and there are a lot of them,

let's start with areas of disagreement because we've had a few past controversies, which I think

our listeners should know about. So many of our listeners will know who you are, because you've

done extremely influential work in psychology and have covered many topics that are really just

a enormous importance outside psychology. But many might not know the history of our bickering

and public. So you've been among the prominent critics of the so-called New Atheists, who have gone

...