Hi, welcome back to Havla's podcast. I'm Havala, and you are joining us on our

series of women in leadership. I'm so glad that you're here. I think this is an

important topic because a lot of times it feels like we either really talk about it and kind

of fight about it and get really intense about it or we don't talk about it at all and we hope nobody

asked. And so I'm hoping that we can have a really healthy conversation

around this topic. Of course we're not able to hit everything in detail. We get

that. We're not naive to the fact that these are real questions and I don't think that you know if you're

sitting on one side or the other that that's somehow ignorance I think it's been a

confusing conversation in the church and so I'm really hoping to unpack some of these maybe give you some

freedom as a woman leader to understand how I process stuff and I couldn't think of

anybody better than Caitlin Zick to join me on the podcast because you as well are a senior

pastor with your husband at a church in town and so you and I've been leading

as pastors for a long time. Yeah. 20 years for me. Yeah.

How many for you?

25.

Amazing. Yeah, it is wild and I think you and I've had definitely different like environments, right?

So you did the youth, you did youth pastoring.

And then did you always think that women could be pastors or leaders?

Interesting, right?

I got radically saved at 16.

And so the church I got saved into,

is the early 2000, so's the like mega church where the

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