This is CBSI on the world. I'm John Bachelors. It's great pleasure to speak with Professor John

you, Distinguished Visiting Professor, School of Civic Leadership at the University of Texas at

Austin, as well as the Emmanuel S. Heller Chair in Law and Distinguished Professor of Law

at the University of California at Berkeley.

He's speaking of an article he's published at the Civitas Institute about presidents, strong-minded

presidents defying strong-minded courts and what happens.

Abraham Lincoln, it is early in the war, 1861, April, I believe, just after the outrage in South Carolina.

We're looking at a general arresting a man's suspect of being a Confederate or a rebel or rebellious

or in some fashion a saboteur. His name is Mariaman. The chief justice at the time is

Tauny. The same Roger Tawny, who was responsible for the Dred Scott decision of some years earlier

under the Buchanan administration, the same Judge Tauny, who's suspect of having leaked the results

of the vote to the president so he was prepared

in his inaugural speech. That same judge, Tony. However, he wanted Merriman brought before his court.

John, this is as dramatic as it gets. Lincoln knew that the judge demanded Merriman. What

happened?

This is an amazing story. And in some respects, you think that it's all Tawny's fault.

Tony, by chance. Oh, he is from Baltimore, Maryland. He happens to be physically present in Baltimore, Maryland,

when some people in Maryland, led by this fellow Merriman, tried to raise Confederate troops, essentially, and attack Union troops who are trying to get from the north to defend Washington.

And in those days, there was a train line that stopped in Baltimore and the north of Baltimore.

And then the troops would have to walk through downtown Baltimore to get to another train to get them to walk down to Washington.

So the rebels were going to try to attack.

And some troops had been harassed on that way.

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