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All right, here's what I want to do. This will be our final segment. Kind of a lightning

round of, you know, tough issues that apologists have to handle. I don't want to necessarily

do it to get, I want your answers, obviously, or at least to suggestion the answer. But the

whole idea here is to unpack the thinking process, the weighing process, the how I value,

you know, the idea that something really can break in, that's divine into the world versus

the cynicism of science and things like that. So are you okay for like, if I just like

throw out the tough? Okay, Joseph Smith and the interface with magic, Fulke magic, was

that an essential part of his training? How open would you be for that history to come

in a little closer, you know, needing to bring Emma to get the plates and the whole... Actually,

wrote some things about that early on when the salamander letter was a big deal and so on. And

first of all, I argued that the term magic was problematic. That you really can't distinguish

clearly between Fulke religion and magic. They blend and blur and any attempt to define magic that

doesn't include somebody's religion seems always to fail. And I actually spent some time on that.

I haven't done it in years, but I wrote a little bit about it. I even spent time for a couple

of months at Princeton in an NEH seminar on the concept of magic in the ancient world. And the

conclusion, the upshot of that seminar, which had anthropologists and classes and everything in it,

these are all academic, you know, PhDs, was that we could not come up with a definition of magic that

made any sense, that applied to everything that's been called magic, but didn't include religion of

...