245: Unabridged Interview: Rumman Chowdhury

No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

Lee Camp

Philosophy, Society & Culture, Religion & Spirituality

4.8 • 555 Ratings

🗓️ 30 January 2026

⏱️ 68 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

This is our unabridged interview with Rumman Chowdhury. What if the greatest danger of artificial intelligence isn’t what it might do someday, but the power it already wields today? Social scientist and AI ethics leader Dr. Rumman Chowdhury joins Lee C. Camp to challenge popular narratives about artificial intelligence, arguing that the real story is not superintelligence or apocalypse, but power, incentives, and responsibility. Drawing on her work at Twitter and her nonprofit Humane Intelligence, Chowdhury explores how systems of surveillance, corporate profit, and moral outsourcing shape our technological future and what it will take to build AI that serves authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: Learn to Ask “Who Benefits?”Behind every AI system are incentive structures and power arrangements within for-profit companies. Cultivating the habit of asking who gains and who pays the cost helps us see technology more truthfully. Refuse to Blame the MachineCalling harm “the AI’s fault” allows humans and institutions to evade responsibility, so ethical clarity begins by keeping people accountable. Pay Attention to What’s Already HereFears about future AI apocalypse distract us from the real effects already shaping culture, labor, democracy, and community right now. Be Wary of Convenience That Watches YouSurveillance almost always arrives disguised as safety or ease, but recognizing how data collection concentrates power helps us protect human dignity and freedom. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Rumman Chowdhury Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hello friends, Lee Seacamp here. You're listening to No Small Endeavor. This is our unabridged
0:07.1	interview with Dr. Ramon Chowdery. Ramon is one of the world's leading AI ethics experts. She actually
0:14.1	did her Ph.D. in political science and has done a lot of work in social sciences, especially
0:19.2	quantitative analysis in social sciences.
0:21.6	And I found, as you'll hear me say in the interview, I found this one of the most refreshing conversations I've had with someone in the so-called tech and ethics world,
0:28.6	because she actually knows a lot about, she actually knows a lot about moral philosophy.
0:32.6	And as you'll hear me gripe again, at one point where I've often found myself frustrated when I hear people talk about technology and ethics because they have such naive and often simplistic views of what it's going to entail to have tech in conversation with ethics.
0:49.3	And I said, often I find myself thinking, have you ever read any moral philosophy of the last two or three hundred
0:55.1	years? And her reply was, I assure you, they have not. So that's troubling. But in any case, I found this
1:02.9	a really helpful conversation. There are some jewels in here. We probably sometimes got a little too
1:08.7	geeky, hopefully not too overly technical, but I found this a very helpful conversation.
1:14.8	And I talked to Ramon.
1:16.2	She was in Riyadh, I think, at the day we taped this interview and was so honored to have her with us.
1:23.4	As you'll hear us say, at least allude to, Ramon was the head of what we might call the AI ethics team at Twitter.
1:32.3	And it made a lot of interesting progress and a lot of fascinating realizations, research that had been done.
1:39.5	And then she was summarily dismissed when Elon Musk took over Twitter.
1:46.1	So anyway, fascinating conversation, fascinating human being, remarkable work that
1:50.4	she's doing.
1:50.9	I hope you enjoy this with Dr. Ramon Chowdhury.
1:53.8	Hey, friends, Lee Kemp here.
1:55.1	We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026, which is why I recommend checking
2:02.3	out How To, the longstanding advice show and 2026 Amby Award nominated Best Personal Growth
	...

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