I'm being both objective and critical about these tools and what I'm calling aversive training tools and saying, yeah, I think it's a good thing to outlaw them.

I think they are problematic for the welfare.

I think the limited research we do have on them shows that they are not more effective and problematic for the welfare.

But at the same time, I think one of the worst things we can do is to shame the people that use them.

And we need to stop that.

Let's see that. Hey there, fellow training nerds. You're listening to drinking from the toilet.

If you like to geek out about combining the science of behavior with positive reinforcement philosophy in real life, you come to the right place.

And I'm your host, Hannah Brandigan,

teacher, trainer, podcaster, and author of the book, Awesome Obedience, and its companion,

Awesome Obedience, The Field Guide, which are both available from clickertraining.com.

This week, we are talking about a kind of, I don't know, complicated topic, maybe a potentially heavy topic. I mean, not as heavy as we

sometimes get and maybe even not as complicated as we sometimes get. I don't know. You decide.

Our topic this week is ethics and animal training with two ethics experts. That was harder to say

than I expected. So I tried to get Cheaty from the Good Place, but he was not available, of course.

But I think the folks that we do have are more than adequate replacements.

So today we're hanging out with returning guest, Dr. Eduardo Fernandez, and a new guest, Dr. Thomas Harrison,

who are both very qualified to speak on this topic.

But before we get into that conversation, I got to send some thanks out to OnQ training treats from Karen Pryor

Clicker Training for supporting this episode and these awesome folks for supporting the podcast on Patreon.

So thank you to Laura D,

Alyssa L, Kayla P, and Phyllis S. If you'd like to support the podcast, get your

questions answered, and access our super secret extra podcast episodes. Go to patreon.com

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