Well, Jeremiah, I'm so excited to get to talk to you. I think I saw you first on Michael

Null's show and you kind of laid out the whole Shroud of Turin arguments. And I was fascinated.

I just heard bits of about the shroud kind of growing up. And that sort of was eye. That was

eye opening for me. And I was like, Shelby, we got to, we got to have him on.

I think our audience is skeptical and fascinated enough to be really into this kind of thing. So,

anyways, so glad that you're joining us. And thanks for taking some time. Thank you. Great to be

with you and Shelby, excited for our conversation. Yeah, awesome. Okay. So I've heard that you are at once a skeptic of the shroud as well. So let's maybe back up a second. And for someone out there that's like, what are you guys talking about, the shroud of Turin? Like, what is this? I thought that was a relic or maybe you don't know anything about it. Give me your definition. What's just, what's the summary of what the shroud actually is? It's really helpful. Even beyond that, a shroud is a burial garment that dead corpses are

wrapped in during their burial rights. And so we have linen strips or mummification from Egypt and

then the Jews. And so that would be the land of the Bible. They practice burial with shrouds, especially in late Second Temple Judaism,

is where we have many of them from.

And so that's what we're discussing.

We're discussing a burial shroud.

We have many from Judaica, the world of Jesus and Jerusalem that are extant that we've discovered.

But the shroud of Turin is unique in that it's the only burial shroud

that bears an image of a crucified, very badly dying and dead man, both the front and the back,

what we call the front and the dorsal image of a crucified man. And the reason it's captured so

many over the last 2,000 years is that all of the image bears correspondence

with what we know from the canonical gospels about how Jesus died under Roman crucifixion

and what led to his resurrection. So there's so much correspondence there, and that's really,

it's become a great mystery, it fascinated many thinkers um i'll just say

that bible scholars are still very agnostic about it most bible scholars really have never studied it

they don't know much about it and i was certainly in that camp myself three years ago because just i

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