At the center I run at the University of Chicago, there's a standing joke.

Whenever we're discussing a new idea related to criminal justice, I either say, I like that idea,

let's bounce it off of Yen's. Or alternatively, I say, I don't really like that

idea, but let's bounce it off a Yens. Who is Yens? Yens Ludwig is my guest today, an economist,

and the director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab. In my opinion, he is the leading thinker

on crime today. And he believes that both the left

and the right are getting it wrong when it comes to fighting crime. The data winds up suggesting

that most shootings in America are not premeditated. Most shootings in America are arguments

that go sideways and end in a tragedy because someone's got a gun.

Welcome to people I mostly admire with Steve Levitt.

Before we get into solutions to the American crime problem, I think it makes sense to talk

about some of the facts, trends, and causes of crime. We've experienced incredible declines

in crime over the last 25 years, but the homicide rate in the United States is still three

to four times higher than a typical wealthy nation.

I started our conversation by asking Jens whether he thinks the huge number of guns in the U.S. is largely responsible for that difference.

Yeah, I totally do.

The thing that really makes the United States exceptional compared to other rich

countries around the world is lots more murders with guns here. In America, the crime problem

basically is a gun violence problem, and that's the thing that is most worrisome for the public.

I can tell you from first-hand experience, I've lived in cities for 30 years. I've had my car broken into,

my bike stolen. A few years ago, I was held up at gunpoint picking my daughter up from her piano

lesson here in Hyde Park. And that was a whole other thing. It's just a completely life-changing

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