What's up everybody?

This is Cortland from Indiehackers.com and you're listening to the IndieHackers podcast.

On this show, I talked to the founders of profitable internet businesses, and I try to get a sense of what it's like to be in their shoes.

How do they get to where they are today?

How did they make decisions, both of their companies and in their personal lives? And what exactly makes their businesses tick? And the goal here, as always, is so that the rest of us can learn from their examples and go on to build our own profitable internet businesses. Today is a special episode. I have two guests who've been on the show before. Ben Tossel is back from MakerPad, and

Sahel of Vingia, the CEO of Gumroad, is also back. Sahel, Ben, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks for having us. Thanks for having me. So the three of us are gathered here today to discuss

the no-code movement. Sahel, you are an early engineer at Pinterest. You built Gumroad by coding it and hiring engineers to help you code it.

So obviously you're going to represent the programmers voice in this discussion.

Ben, you are not a developer and your company MakerPad helps others like you learn to build

and operate businesses without needing to code.

So you really are writing the wave of the no code movement.

I think that makes you the perfect person to explain. Ben, what is no code? And why does it

matter? Well, for me, no code is just being able to build something, a solution to your problem,

whether it's like a small tool to help you, like, do your podcast now.

I just did a, one of the guys just did a tutorial on automating, like, the episode link to

guests for them after their podcast, or whether it's like a big thing, like how to build

a Gumroad, Patreon clone without code, which we did last week.

And that was not intentional for this podcast.

Sounds like somebody's coming for you, Sahel.

It's a, yeah, it could be a range of things.

It's just, it's not needing to be technical and not using the I can't code excuse as a barrier to build anything. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see how this conversation goes in terms of, it seems that there's a big one versus other type discussion on the internet. It feels like you're either in one camp or the other. I don't think that's quite how it is, but we'll see. Well, with this being a debate, that's probably exactly what we're going to do,

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