This is Jonathan Peugeot. He's an artist and a public speaker who,

I suppose, rose to prominence through his work with Jordan Pierson. Jonathan, how are you?

I've been great. It's good to meet you. I've been following your work, I guess,

since Jordan Peartis kind of appeared online and he was on your channel.

I started to pay attention a little bit to you, and so it's nice to talk to you.

Thank you. Right. So, I guess the best place for us to start would probably be

about 10 or 20 years ago with the sort of rise

of the new atheists. I think this is the sort of foundation of the root of one of the problems

that we found ourselves in. Would you like to tell me what your opinion of the new atheists is

and how you feel that their movement has developed and what's happened to it.

I would say on the one hand, when the new atheist kind of appeared on the scene, I was very

aggravated with their, with their, the way they spoke and their arguments. But I also felt like

people couldn't understand the counter argument. It's very strange. People were struggling

to understand how to frame the counter argument. And I've been kind of developing my ideas for years,

not just about that, but partly about how to answer this kind of argument. And then Jordan Peterson

appeared. And we realized when he discovered my work as well,

that we were on the same page. And I feel like he broke through the wall in trying to explain

the problem of the new atheist movement and bringing back the notion of consciousness, the

problem of framing and of the question of how phenomena manifest itself and patterns, all of this stuff, which

the new atheists just ignored, because they were so focused on kind of scientific questions.

They didn't realize the problem of the viewer and the problem of consciousness in the whole,

let's say, in the pattern of all of this together.

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