Good Day Thomas Jefferson Hour podcast listeners and thank you for

listening without you we are nothing we are nothing David Swenson the semi-permanent guest host of the Thomas Jefferson Hour

we're in studio this week because we had a special conversation.

It was a fun show. I just, you know, it's like I really enjoyed myself this week.

Our old friend Joe Ellis, Dr Joseph Ellis of Mount Holyoke,

called us from Vermont, called you and said

he's got a new book coming and would we like to talk a little bit about it?

And I said, yeah, of course, but why don't you come on early

before the book's out and we can just kind of talk about what's coming?

And he said, really, do you think anybody would be interested I said yes you know I

expected this to be kind of friendly pro forma and then we got into this conversation

and it got deep fast yeah I was surprised at a couple of things. First of all, he's using his lifelong study of the

founding fathers in American history to talk about the current troubled situation and not just about the presidency of trouble.

He is troubled and then listening to the two of you, I kind of wanted to jump in and say,

now wait a minute guys, you know, this is just one little piece of history in a long a long period of our nation you know it's

going to come and go that's as alarming as it is his view is two steps forward, one step back.

But I think a lot of his liberal friends think two steps forward,

seven steps back.

Some people think we're heading towards the dark ages here.

He's a relative optimist but he is

concerned and he wanted to see what you always do so when I when I get worked up

on the show as I do sometimes you say wait a minute this is not the first time we've had this

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