This podcast is brought to you by sarahraven.com, which is home to everything you need for a truly

beautiful and productive garden. You'll also find great and essential gardening kit and stylish,

lovely things to have in your house to bring the outside indoors, all inspired by the garden

and the house being tied together. There's also plenty of

garden inspiration, how-to videos and specialist growing guides. So head over to sarahraven.com today

to discover even more. Welcome to GrowCook Eat Arrange, the podcast of me, Sarah Raven, and today I'm joined by Gary, who's been a repeater guest on the show, who's our senior horticultural buyer of the mail order company.

He is incredibly knowledgeable about new release plants much more than me.

I mean, so Josie and I trial lots of things here, but often supplied by Gary that he's seen from various breeders and his travels around the country and around Europe.

And so we get them here.

So welcome, Gary. It's lovely to have you back. Yes so we get them here. So welcome, Gary.

It's lovely to have you back.

It's good to be back.

Thank you very much.

We're going to talk about shrubs today,

which is an area that you are particularly interested in at the moment.

And I just wanted you to explain to everyone why it's become a new passion,

but not a new passion, but a sort of increased passion of

yours. Yeah, I've just felt that the past decade, we've been increasingly drawn to herbaceous

planting, naturalistic styles, and it's not that shrubs have become unfashionable, it's just that

they're not a priority when we come to planning the garden. And from a

design point of view, I think it's really important that shrubs should be one of the first things

that we consider, not because the time scale it takes to establish them, but they create the structure

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