The American economy, the global economy right now, turmoil is the word.

I welcome Professor John Cochran, who teaches economics at Stanford University,

is an esteemed member of the Hoover Institution, writing grumpy economist.

He's not grumpy. He's quite cheerful.

Grumpy economist on two plans, two visions for a national economy.

One entitled Economic Statecraft.

The other doesn't have an easy title other than the fact that it's battling with bullies.

It's the wonderful title of the piece.

Professor, a very good evening to you.

Economic statecraft is more straightforward,

and you describe at one point an observation that came to me

as I was reading through the ideas, the notions, the visions,

is that this resembles war by other means.

Is that the idea, John?

Good evening to you.

Good evening.

War, geopolitical competition, all the politics that are short of war,

as Clausivus would have put it, yes. It's a vision put forth by my good colleague here at Hoover,

H.R. McMaster, trying to put some intellectual discipline on the use of economic tools, tariffs, export controls, industrial policies,

regulations for national security purposes.

You note at one point that Mr. McMaster and Mr. Grotto, his colleague, were responding to remarks about their economic

statecraft and that they were recognizing there were interventionist economic statecraft

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