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Chances are your favorite websites used to depend on Google for traffic and money.

But that's not really working anymore.

Now publishers are scrambling for new lifelines.

Neil Vogel, who runs People, Inc., says his company figured it out a couple years ago.

You would think, given what everyone said about us,

that we would be the guys that would be doing the worst now.

We're kind of the guys doing the best now.

I'm Peter Kafka, the host of channels,

the show about tech and media

and what happens when they collide.

You can hear my conversation with Neil Vogel now,

wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Well, we should say that the two people ICE have killed in Minneapolis.

We're both white.

...