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The David Frum Show

Would U.S. Generals Obey Illegal Trump Orders?

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.6 • 2.4K Ratings

🗓️ 29 October 2025

⏱️ 58 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the new Trump administration’s pattern of “politicized stupidity”: the willful refusal to understand abuses of power, including the destruction of the White House’s East Wing and the perceived sale of government influence disguised as private donations. Then Frum speaks with his Atlantic colleague Tom Nichols, an expert on civil-military relations and a longtime scholar of U.S. defense policy, about President Donald Trump’s efforts to turn  the military into a personal instrument of power. Nichols explains how the capture of the Justice Department, the firing of Pentagon lawyers, and the use of the National Guard against civilians are eroding the rule of law, and how a president can launch wars without congressional consent. Finally, Frum closes with a reflection on Eugène Ionesco’s play Rhinoceros, a parable about conformity and courage, and what it means to remain human in a world where everyone else is turning into beasts.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

Okay, so what if you could listen to all your books, docs, PDFs, and articles?

0:04.6

Well, you can.

0:05.8

With the 11 Reader app, you can turn anything into natural-sounding voice, like this one.

0:11.4

So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today. Hello, and welcome to the David Fromm Show.

0:29.1

I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.

0:32.0

My guest this week will be my Atlantic colleague Tom Nichols, and we'll be discussing

0:35.8

civil military relations in the United

0:37.7

States as troops march in American cities and as the United States appears to be sliding

0:42.9

toward a unilateral unapproved by Congress war in the Caribbean. My book this week will not be a book

0:49.1

at all. It will be a play, Rhinoceros by Eugene Ionesco. Please stay to the end to hear a discussion of that play.

0:55.8

But first, some preliminary thoughts about the week just passed and the week ahead.

1:01.0

There's so many outrages in the Trump years. There's so many abuses that maybe it's petty to fix

1:06.9

on minor irritants. But there is a minor irritant that got caught in my craw. I just want to

1:12.1

ventilate a little bit about it. One of the more annoying and more pointless aspects of the Trump era is

1:19.3

what I call politicized stupidity. Politicized stupidity is a kind of aggressive not getting the point

1:26.3

by people who are otherwise perfectly well

1:29.2

equipped to getting the point. Genuine stupidity is a misfortune and is distributed by God,

1:35.6

but the politicized stupidity is chosen, and it's chosen for reasons. Let me give you an example

1:40.1

of what I mean. So President Trump has just demolished the east wing of the White House. He did this

1:46.0

without any form of consultation, as if the White House were his personal property. In order to

1:50.6

build a giant ballroom that there's no demonstration of need for, and that again, he's treating

1:55.1

as a point of personal property. He's choosing the design. There's no process of respect for

...

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