it's this ongoing, as you said, disregard not recognizing that change has occurred, not recognizing, you know, just kind of doing the same-all, same-all institutionally.

And I think that's a part of it.

So, you know, not recognizing that we need to do more about this.

Or if somebody comes and says, hey, the women are getting more popular, said, oh, that can't be true.

You know, just making, again, these sorts of assumptions.

Welcome to the Edge of Sports Podcast. I'm Dave Zyron.

This week we are talking to Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackleford, co-authors of one of my favorite all-time sports books, Shattering the Glass, the remarkable history of women's basketball.

I also have some choice words. I've got Just stand up and just sit down awards and more. But first, let's talk to Pamela Grundy and Susan

Shackleford. Historian, author, and activist Pamela Grundy lives in Charlotte, North Carolina,

where she pursues a variety of writing, teaching, and museum projects.

Her previous books include the award-winning learning to win, sports education, and social change in 20th century, North Carolina.

Susan Shackleford has written about sports for the Miami Herald and the Charlotte Observer and now runs a freelance writing

and editing business.

I'm thrilled to have them both on the show.

Let's do this.

First and foremost, I just wanted to ask, Shattering the Glass came out in 2005.

What do you think has changed the most about

women's basketball since then? And what do you think has remained the same? Well, that is a

real good question. I think in some ways, what's changed the most is women's basketball has gotten much more comfortable

with the LBTGQ community. That was just a deep, deep anxiety and tension when we did the book.

Things were looking up a little bit. There was just a lot of tension around that.

And now they seem to have, you know, come to terms of that, acknowledging the players and the

...