Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American politics and the Trump presidency.

And before we get started on this episode, I would like to draw your attention to a special Christmas holiday offer for Americano listeners. If you sign up now,

you'll be able to take advantage of this offer. It's just $79 for an annual subscription. Plus,

you get a free Amazon gift card worth $20. And as an added inducement to Americano listeners, if you go to spectator.us.us

forward slash holiday and enter the code Americano in capitals, you will get a further $5 off your

annual subscription. So what's not to like? Please do sign up. I'm dragged today by the great

American writer Michael Lewis, who is author

of many famous books, including Liars, Poker, Moneyball and The Big Short. His latest book,

The Fifth Risk, is about federal government in the time of Trump. And Michael was in London this

week promoting the new paperback edition of the Fifth Risk

and I caught up with him in the British Museum.

So please excuse the slightly dodgy audio.

Michael and I were sitting in the downstairs cafe

and he kindly bought us some sandwiches

which is why as well as background hubub, you may also be able to hear

some appalling eating noises. Anyway, I hope you can hear it clearly, and I hope you enjoy it.

But let's talk about the book. First of all, I noted that you dedicated Tom Wolfe.

And it reminded me a little bit of the right stuff.

But it was like a policy wonk version of the right stuff.

And I think, I mean, well, first of all, I think the last time we met, we spoke about

Tom Wolfe and, you know, you said I should get in touch on trying to interview about Trump which I did but didn't work out. Right it didn't it didn't know no sadly

he didn't get back to me but he was obviously ill already yeah I mean what do you think someone

...