I'm John Lovebitt. This is Creative Conversations. You're about to hear an awesome conversation

I had with Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist and professor of management

and psychology at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. We talked about

narcissistic politicians. We talked about how to get out the vote. And I actually learned

something completely new to me about how to get out the vote, which I honestly want to

stop talking now and go fix how we've been saying it. We talked about groupthink. We talked

about his podcast work life. Just listen, just listen to it.

You've done a lot of works for drawing on psychology to help us understand politics,

to help us understand business. I specifically want to talk about how we can use, oh, I said

to talk like my mother. We're getting closer to New York. Wait a little bit later this

week. How psychology can fix politics? You say that it can fix it completely with no

exceptions. Is that right? No, not right? Definitely not. Politics is hopeless, but I think

we can make it less terrible than it currently is. Let's make politics less terrible. I wanted

to start with something that I saw you give a brief talk on that was fascinating and

was about narcissism in politics. So I just want to start by asking you about something

you've written, which is that politics tends to draw more narcissistic people. Why is that?

And what can we learn from it? So I don't know if it always has. One of the interesting

things is when you track narcissism over time and you get historians and psychologists

to rate the speeches and bios of candidates actually gone up. So, you know, in the 1800s,

I'm not sure that it was necessarily attracting a lot of narcissists. Today it is. I think

part of the problem is that politicians are always on stage, right? They're in the spotlight

and what narcissists crave is attention. And so if you wander around where your fundamental

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