Why We Need Forests: Their Vital Role in Climate Dynamics, Rain, and The Biotic Pump with Anastassia Makarieva
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
Nate Hagens
4.8 • 549 Ratings
🗓️ 10 September 2025
⏱️ 122 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
To best understand this episode, please watch this ~2 minute video on the biotic pump.
It's widely known that Earth's forests provide home to countless numbers of species, act as a vast sink for carbon, and provide much of the food, materials, and clean water on which our societies rely. But emerging science shows us that forests may play another critical role: making rain. This theory, called the biotic pump theory, hypothesizes that instead of being passive recipients of rain, forests may actively create the conditions for precipitation over land – a premise that turns modern meteorology on its head.
In this episode, Nate is joined by physicist Anastassia Makarieva about the critical yet often overlooked role forests play in maintaining ecological balance and climate stability. Through the lens of the biotic pump theory, she highlights the importance of moisture and rainfall cycles, the dangers of ecosystem tipping points, and the escalating risks of deforestation. Anastassia argues that a paradigm shift is needed – one that redefines how humanity understands and manages forests in the fight against global heating.
What would climate models reveal if they fully integrated the Biotic Pump Theory? How might policies protecting against deforestation evolve if societies recognized the irreplaceable role forests play in how water moves on land? And beyond policy, how might reconnecting with our deep interdependence on forests help us rediscover a richer connection to ourselves as individuals?
(Conversation recorded on July 9th, 2025)
About Anastassia Makarieva:
Dr. Anastassia Makarieva is a Russian atmospheric physicist and senior researcher at the Petersburg Nuclear Physics Institute. She obtained her Ph.D. in atmospheric physics from St. Petersburg State University in 2000. Makarieva is best known for co-developing the "biotic pump" theory alongside the late Professor Victor Gorshkov. The theory posits that forests play a crucial role in driving atmospheric moisture transport, effectively influencing rainfall patterns over land. Her work emphasizes the importance of intact forests in maintaining climate stability and has challenged conventional climate models to incorporate the dynamic role of vegetation in atmospheric processes.
Watch this video episode on YouTube
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
---
Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
Join our Hylo group and connect with other listeners
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | we are calibrating the models using the most disturbed ecosystems. |
| 0:07.5 | It is like we go to the hospital where there are very ill people suffering from disease |
| 0:13.6 | and we calibrate an average human being based on their capacity to do things. |
| 0:21.6 | But all that they can do is at best survive till the next meeting with the doctor. |
| 0:27.6 | And this is not how natural forests function. |
| 0:30.6 | So our vision of forests is totally distorted and we don't study the most important for us that actually stabilize the climate. |
| 0:44.3 | You're listening to the Great Simplification. I'm Nate Hagen's. On this show, we describe how energy, the economy, the environment and human behavior all fit together and what it |
| 0:56.1 | might mean for our future. By sharing insights from global thinkers, we hope to inform and |
| 1:01.8 | inspire more humans to play emergent roles in the coming great simplification. |
| 1:12.0 | Today I'm pleased to be joined by physicist Anastasia Makareva to discuss her work researching |
| 1:18.9 | and educating on the biotic pump. Dr. Anastasia Makareva is a Russian atmospheric physicist |
| 1:26.9 | and senior researcher at the Petersburg Nuclear Physics Institute. |
| 1:31.8 | Anastasia is best known for co-developing the biotic pump theory alongside the late professor Victor Gorshkov. |
| 1:39.6 | This theory proposes that forests play a crucial role in driving atmospheric moisture transport, effectively influencing rainfall patterns over land. |
| 1:50.1 | Her work emphasizes the importance of intact forests in maintaining climate stability and has challenged conventional climate models to incorporate the dynamic role of vegetation in atmospheric processes. |
| 2:05.6 | She is Russian. The language is a little difficult. I encourage you to watch the intro video, which will link right here on biotic pumps before you watch this, |
| 2:19.9 | what I consider to be an excellent video. |
| 2:24.8 | Near the end, I asked my traditional closing questions and just thinking of her as a scientist, |
| 2:32.5 | forgetting that she lives in Russia, |
| 2:36.2 | uh, with the United States being at war. And, um, it kind of stopped me cold. Um, |
| 2:43.7 | the lack of empathy that I had in the moment asking her about those questions when people in her country are dying. |
| 2:53.9 | My personal view is I have long thought the biotic pump theory is extremely valid and |
... |
Please login to see the full transcript.
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Nate Hagens, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.
Generated transcripts are the property of Nate Hagens and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.
Copyright © Tapesearch 2026.