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If we were to see a really large increasing government spending and it wasn't accompanied by taxes,

that would put upward pressure on the economy. And you'd see the fed raising interest rates. And in fact, they'd raise it quite a lot.

Hello, welcome to the Clancho on the box media podcast network. This is a conversation I've wanted to have for, I don't know, a year.

I literally got the idea for this. I think like a year ago, and it's just taken me some time to get together to figure out how to do it.

I have been, for a long time, interested in and often confused by this idea of modern monetary theory, which is an alternative way of looking at how to think about budget deficits and inflation and the government's ability and constraints on printing money.

But because, as I said, it's not always an idea. I understand all that well. I've wanted to try to get a better way of tracing its boundaries.

And so I wanted to have a debate between, not a debate, I guess a conversation between somebody who's a proponent of modern monetary theory and someone who comes out of more mainstream,

if liberal branch of traditional economics. And so I'm very glad that Jason Furman, president Obama's former chief economist and Stephanie Keltin, who is an economist at Stony Brook University.

And is I think one of the most public advocates of modern monetary theory have both agreed to join me here.

So on the one hand, this is an idea that often gets caricatured in the debate as saying, particularly like on Twitter and elsewhere, as saying, you don't have to pay for anything. You just print whatever you want.

But on the other hand, if it's not that, well, what is it?

But what, how would it recommend a different path forward for government budgets, for fiscal policy, for the Fed, for the country, then more traditional economics?

So this is a great conversation trying to trace that boundary. One thing I want to say is that we had a catastrophic audio mess up on my end.

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