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The Ezra Klein Show

Why Russia Is Losing the War in Ukraine

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 23 September 2022

⏱️ 77 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

When Russia invaded Ukraine in February, the question most analysts were asking was not whether Russia would win. It was how fast. On almost every quantifiable metric from military strength to economic size Russia has decisive advantages over Ukraine. A swift Russian victory appeared inevitable. Of course, that swift victory didn’t happen. And in recent weeks, the direction of the war has begun to tilt in Ukraine’s direction. On Sept. 6, the Ukrainian military launched a counteroffensive near Kharkiv in northern Ukraine and regained 3,400 square miles of territory in a week — more territory than Russia had captured in the last five months. Analysts are now saying it’s unlikely that Vladimir Putin can accomplish one of his chief aims: annexing the Donbas by force. Andrea Kendall-Taylor is the director of the trans-Atlantic security program at the Center for a New American Security. She’s a former intelligence officer who, from 2015 to 2018, led strategic analysis on Russia at the National Intelligence Council. When we spoke, she was recently back from a trip to Ukraine. And she believes that the long-term trends favor a Ukrainian victory. In this conversation, Kendall-Taylor helps me understand this watershed moment in the war. We discuss why Ukraine’s recent counteroffensive was so significant; how it and other recent developments have hampered Russian morale, manpower and weapons supply; whether sanctions are really influencing Russia’s strategy, and how sanctions might get worse; how this conflict is profoundly changing Europe; whether this recent turn of events signals a possible Ukrainian victory; why “personalist dictators” like Putin can be so dangerous when backed into a corner; how likely it is that we’ll see stalemate or settlement negotiations in the near future; how Kendall-Taylor rates the likelihood of various outcomes; what we should expect in the next phase of the war and more. Mentioned: “Ukraine Holds the Future” by Timothy Snyder “The Russia-Ukraine War at Six Months” by Adam Tooze Recommendations:Stalin: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928 by Stephen Kotkin Twitter Accounts to Follow for Russia-Ukraine War Analysis: Michael Kofman Rob Lee Mick Ryan The Institute for the Study of War Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Emma Ashford.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Mr. Klein, this is the Ezra Kunchel.

0:23.6

Russia invaded Ukraine on Thursday, February 24th, and everything we know about that invasion

0:29.0

at its launch implies that Vladimir Putin expected a lightning victory.

0:34.7

That's what the battle plans seemed to be built for, and to be fair, that's what many

0:39.0

of the world's intelligence agencies and military analysts thought that he would get.

0:44.2

He did not get it.

0:46.1

And then the conventional wisdom changed.

0:48.0

Russia had misjudged.

0:49.9

Its military was weaker than we thought, but still its size and power and money and might

0:56.0

would overwhelm Ukraine.

0:58.4

And then Russia had gained 300 square miles and to put that in perspective, that is more

1:24.2

land than Russia had gained in the past five months.

1:28.8

The war today is not the war of February.

1:32.8

The armies are different, both because of how many soldiers have been lost and also how

1:36.4

much has been learned.

1:37.9

The psychology of the two sides is different.

1:40.0

The economies of the two sides are different.

1:42.1

The weapons that Ukraine is receiving from the west are different.

1:46.3

President Zelensky and President Putin's positions, both internally with their people, and

1:51.8

then externally in terms of what they want are different.

1:55.4

And so I wanted to have a conversation about both where the conflict stands now, but also

2:00.7

about how the balance of power, how the manpower and money and equipment and geopolitics have

...

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