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Why Proving War Crimes Is Difficult and Rare

The Daily

The New York Times

News, Daily News

4.5 β€’ 97.8K Ratings

πŸ—“οΈ 6 April 2022

⏱️ 32 minutes

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Summary

This episode details graphic scenes. Many around the world are calling the indiscriminate attacks on civilians in Bucha, a suburb northwest of the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv, a war crime. But investigating such atrocities is painstakingly complicated. Could one case that resulted in convictions β€” the genocide in Bosnia in the 1990s β€” offer lessons on how to proceed? Guest: Roger Cohen, the Paris bureau chief for The New York Times.

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0:00.0

I'm Carl Ottergall. I reported from Bucha, Ukraine, on Sunday, April 3rd.

0:11.1

We drove in from the west and one of the first things you see is along the highway and

0:17.6

then at intersections smashed cars. You can't understand how or what happened but it's

0:24.5

chilling because some of them look like they've been pushed aside by tanks or even rolled over.

0:32.1

And so when we got into Bucha just as we were exploring and that's what you do when you're

0:37.0

a reporter, you drive into a place, you start blocking and talking to people and a woman was in

0:44.4

great distress begged us to go to a house where she said a woman, a civilian woman had been

0:51.6

killed in her garden so she took us up there and her elderly mother was there who was 76 and she

1:02.4

described what happened. She said a column of tanks of Russian tanks drove in down the road.

1:09.1

You know her daughter ran out into the garden saying there are there are troops and they immediately

1:15.4

opened fire on her. We saw the bullets in her fence and her daughter died in the garden right there

1:23.7

and then this poor woman didn't know what to do. She was shooting and shelling for days and so she

1:31.5

half buried her daughter by covering her in plastic sheeting and then covering her with wooden

1:38.8

boards and she took us into the garden and showed us where her daughter lay and you could see her

1:44.0

her feet still in her sort of patterned socks and galoshes hooking out under the boards.

1:53.8

So that was one of the first things that happened to us when we drove into Bucha on Sunday.

2:06.7

I'm Andrew Kramer. I cover Ukraine for the New York Times. When I got to Bucha over the weekend

2:12.8

I didn't know what I would find and as we were driving down the road we began to see bodies on the

2:19.6

road. First it was one man lying face down on the street, another man shot in the head.

2:29.6

I ended up talking to the town's corner and he's found so many bodies that he dug a mass grave

2:36.7

in a church yard and even on the day when we met he had found 13 bodies with their hands tied

2:43.1

and shot in the head in an execution. He showed me a video on his cell phone of the scene of five

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