Hi, everyone. We're off this week, but I wanted to pull one of my favorite old episodes out of the archives.

Enjoy. Welcome to Off Message. I'm Isaac Dover. How much, how much were the iceberg have we seen?

The real answer is, I don't know, but we keep uncovering more bits of ice.

When you see, for example, that Mueller indictment of the 13 Russians, you know about intelligence operations.

Does it strike you that there's a lot more coming?

Yeah.

Oh, in my view?

Yes.

Yes.

Today's guest, General Michael Hayden, the former head of the NSA and CIA under George W. Bush.

Have you read the Mueller indictment of the 13 Russians?

If you haven't, you should.

It's 37 pages long and pretty plainly written.

It's frightening.

But there's a whole lot of stuff flying back and forth about all the Russian investigations.

Too many details to keep track of, too many names and players and narratives.

And over the weekend, when the Democratic memo came out in response to the Nunes memo,

I was asking one of our reporters about something he wrote about it and he told me that I was mistaking a key detail.

And that's me. I've been following it pretty closely. I get paid to follow pretty closely.

So in trying to understand this, I decided to be a good idea to go to someone who can help make more sense of it.

And since Bob Mueller isn't doing any interviews these days, I tracked down Michael Hayden,

at his office, a few blocks from the White House, and asked him what to make of all of it.

...