Why Good Laws Aren’t Enough (with Martha Minow)

Stay Tuned with Preet

Vox Media Podcast Network

News, Government, Politics, Society & Culture

4.8 • 32.3K Ratings

🗓️ 14 August 2025

⏱️ 68 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Should the law be more forgiving? Martha Minow, former dean of Harvard Law School, joins Preet for a wide-ranging conversation on what justice means today—inside and beyond the courtroom. They discuss the erosion of public trust in the legal system, the dangers of outcome-driven thinking, and why Minow believes we can’t “achieve” justice. Plus, they explore how self-interest in the Trump era has eroded our institutions, from the Supreme Court to Congress. In the bonus for Insiders, Minow explores whether judges should be more outspoken amid the rise of political attacks, death threats, and a breakdown in civic education. Then, Preet answers listener questions. Join the CAFE Insider community to stay informed without hysteria, fear-mongering, or rage-baiting. Head to cafe.com/insider to sign up. Thank you for supporting our work. Show notes and a transcript of the episode are available on our website. You can now watch this episode! Head to CAFE’s Youtube channel and subscribe. Have a question for Preet? Ask @PreetBharara on BlueSky, or Twitter with the hashtag #AskPreet. Email us at staytuned@cafe.com, or call 833-997-7338 to leave a voicemail. Stay Tuned with Preet is brought to you by CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	From Cafe and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to stay tuned.
0:06.0	I'm Preet Bharara.
0:08.1	I think the justice is a direction rather than a destination.
0:13.7	I don't think you achieve it.
0:15.0	I think you're constantly striving for it.
0:26.7	I'm Pratt. That's Martha Minnow.
0:31.0	She is the former dean of Harvard Law School and a distinguished legal scholar,
0:35.6	an expert in constitutional law, human rights, and legal advocacy.
0:41.7	Minow is famously, the professor who then Senator Obama described in his 2008 presidential campaign as having changed his life.
0:44.3	The former dean joined me to discuss some of the weighty philosophical questions that inform our
0:48.3	criminal justice system, including notions of accountability and forgiveness.
0:53.2	We discussed a persistent question in my life and work.
0:56.7	Would you rather have good laws or good people?
1:00.0	Then I'll answer a question about how U.S. attorneys are appointed
1:02.4	and unpack the situation unfolding in New Jersey's U.S. Attorney's Office.
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	...

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