Brian Laird on WNYC, and we've got more coverage of the war coming up, but we've decided that's not all we will do today.

So right now, as the Jeffrey Epstein revelations continue to emerge, and as some people involved

are clearly relieved that the war is taking that out of the main headlines, we're going to

talk now to Lisa Miller, domestic correspondent for the Welles section of the New York Times,

who wrote, to my eye, was a very trenchant analysis about how people rationalized their ongoing relationships with Epstein.

Her article that's now two weeks old, and I've been wanting to have her on ever since, it came out, is called the Price of Admission to Epstein's world world silence. Lisa, thanks for coming on with us.

So happy to be here, Brian. Thank you. I'm just going to jump in with an example from your

article. You wrote at least some of Epstein's friends knew what he meant when he said massage.

In 2010, in an email to Boris Nikolic, then the science

advisor to the Gates Foundation, Epstein said he was finishing one, a massage. And Nicolic responded

with happy ending, I hope, punctuating his note with a winking emoji, and Epstein replied,

I'm too impatient, happy beginning. So Nicolich did not respond to your request for comment,

but what do you take from that exchange? I mean, obviously, Nicolic knew what Epstein was up to when he said massage.

And remember, you know, at that point, I think that note was written in 2011.

At that point, Epstein was already a convicted sex offender. He had already spent time in jail.

He was a sex offender in New York and in Florida. His technique was to recruit girls at that point,

as young as 14, to his house for massages, and then he would force them

to undress and have sex with him. And so massage was his...

Euphemism? His... The euphemism. It was his euphemism for what he liked to do sexually. He also liked

massages, and he blurred it all together. But when he said massage, it was clear that some of his

friends at least knew what he was talking about. So here's another one from your article, and you

put this all together so well with so many

...