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Hello and welcome back to the Americano Show, a series of discussions in which we talk about American politics, power and prejudices.

Each week, we will do at least two possibly more episodes speaking to an American or an American expert about what is going on in America. We will cover the Trump presidency,

of course, but we will also be doing quite a lot of non-Trump-related podcasts, because if you're

anything like me, the story of Donald Trump can get a bit overwhelming. Please keep listening

and enjoy.

I'm delighted to be joined today by one of our favourite guests.

It's Professor John Meersheimer of the University of Chicago.

And we're going to be talking mostly about Ukraine.

But John, I wanted to start by asking you about a story that caught my eye last week because it had your name in it.

And that's that Jeffrey Epstein and Professor Alan Dershowitz,

who's another occasional guest on this podcast, in the mid-2000s, they discussed a very famous essay, which then turned into a book that you and Stephen Walsh wrote, which was called the Israel Lobby.

And it was about the influence of Israel over American foreign policy.

And I think it's fair to say it riled up quite a few people at the time.

But I think it's established now as a pretty important work, if I don't sound like too much of a flatter, in saying that.

And the story was, for viewers and listeners who aren't aware, that Epstein and Dershowitz were sort of consulting each other on how to debunk it or attack it.

What did you make of this story?

Well, Alan Dershowitz was one of our principal foes when we wrote the article in the London Review of Books, and then when we wrote the book itself a year later,

and he tried to smear us at every turn as anti-Semites and as hostile not only to Israel's interests,

...