Welcome to Current Affairs. My name is Nathan Robinson. I am the editor in chief of Current Affairs

Magazine. I am here today with the legendary Thomas Frank. He co-founded and edited the great

Baffler magazine. He is also the author of many books analyzing American politics and history,

including What's the Matter with Kansas? The Wrecking Crew, Pity the Billionaire,

Listen, Liberal or whatever happened to the party of the people.

And most recently, The People Know a brief history of anti-populism. Returning to the program, Thomas Frank,

welcome to current affairs. Nathan, what's up? Those book titles are all evergreen. Isn't that funny?

Good Lord, I know. They're 20 years old, and you could like pick up what's the matter with Kansas,

which I actually did the other day, and I was sort of chuckling at it. It's like,

you know, it's still going. Well, that's why people should pick up and buy your books,

because they never expire. But it is also depressing because it means that you are one of the most

astute and least listened to people in the country. But I've grown used to that, Nathan.

When I was young,

I had these ambitions that things might be otherwise. I don't feel bad about that anymore.

I used to feel bad about like, you know, nobody cared and nobody listened. But I don't care

anymore. But you listen liberal even had the finger on the cover. It even pointed straight at them.

So they knew they knew it was them that had to listen.

And I mean, you couldn't have worded that more directly.

The liberals didn't listen because I just want to read.

Let me read it here from the last page of Listen Liberal, published in 2016, before the calamity of that year.

You say, now, all political parties are alliances of groups with disparate interest,

but the contradictions of the Democratic Party coalition seem unusually sharp.

...