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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, News Commentary, Philosophy, Society & Culture

4.5 • 11.1K Ratings

🗓️ 22 May 2026

⏱️ 51 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Almost a decade ago, Tom Nichols warned that Americans were losing respect for expertise. He didn’t expect things to get this bad. Sean talks with Nichols about his 2017 book “The Death of Expertise” and what’s happened since: why people don’t just distrust experts but actively push back against them, how the internet turns bad ideas into communities, and why a society that can’t agree on basic facts can’t function for long. They also dig into the deeper causes: loneliness, narcissism, and the weird psychology of living in a world where everything “just works.” Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Support for this show comes from Odu.
0:03.0	Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
0:09.7	Introducing Odu, it's the only business software you'll ever need.
0:13.9	It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.
0:22.1	And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
0:27.8	That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
0:31.1	So why not you?
0:32.4	Try O-D-O-4-free at O-D-O-O-O-O-O-com.
0:41.0	Support for this show comes from O-D-U.
0:43.9	Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't
0:49.1	talk to each other?
0:50.5	Introducing O-Doo.
0:52.0	It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated
0:56.7	platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part,
1:04.1	O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of
1:10.2	businesses have made the switch.
1:12.0	So why not you?
1:13.3	Try O-D-for-free at O-D-O-O-O-O-O-com.
1:16.3	That's O-D-O-O-O-O-O-com. Well, I'm here with my guest today, Tom Nichols.
1:49.4	He is the author of several books, including the one we'll talk about today.
1:53.2	He's a staff writer at the Atlantic.
2:01.6	And finally, my old job, a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. Naval War College, where he taught for 25 years. Welcome to the show, Tom. Thanks for having me again, Sean. So you wrote the death of
	...

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