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I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, WNYC's Kai Wright talks with two

self-identified prison abolitionists. Paul Butler, a former federal prosecutor who gave up that

work when he saw the harm it was causing communities

of color, and Sujatha Baliga, who leads an organization called the Restortive Justice Project

and received the MacArthur Genius Grant for her work.

Last week, we spent the full hour of our program on the topic of mass incarceration.

I was joined for that by Kai Wright, who's the host of WNYC's election podcast, the United States of Anxiety.

And we talked about how imprisonment soared during the war on drugs in the emerging consensus that mass incarceration,

whatever the intention, had caused incalculable harm, especially in black and Latino communities.

At the end of that episode, we touched on the future of prison reform, in particular the

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