One of the shifts that we've seen in recent years is that diversity has become a

synonym for equality. They're very different things. We tend to look at minorities as belonging to

communities and that class is something that applies largely to the white population.

You can have a diverse society, but we've got a diverse society which is deeply unequal

and a diverse elite is still an elite. We live in the world where politicians, activists,

corporations are happy to talk about political equality, but don't want to do anything about

economic inequality. And the point is that that affects minorities because minorities

are disproportionately working class and poor. Those deep fundamental questions about the

kind of societies we live in no longer get asked. How do we fix this? Can we fix this?

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

Our terrific guest today is a writer and broadcaster who's written very interesting things

but particularly about the issue of race. His latest book on the same subject is called

not so black and white from white supremacy to identity politics. Ken and Malik, welcome to Trigonometry.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure. It's been a long time coming.

We've been keen to have you on the show for ages. You kept saying, I'll come on when I've

got my book out. I'll come on. Here you are. Before we get into the conversation which

we're both really excited to have with you, tell us who are you? How are you where you are?

What has been the journey through life that's led you to be sitting here talking to us?

If I was to tell you my journey through life, it'll take the whole program.

So let me just say I'm mainly a writer these days and I've come into writing out of

social and political activism. And much of my writing is about putting contemporary

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