What sets great teams apart | Lane Shackleton (CPO of Coda)
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
Lenny Rachitsky
5.0 • 1.5K Ratings
🗓️ 1 October 2023
⏱️ 90 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
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Lane Shackleton is CPO of Coda, where he’s been leading the product and design team for over eight years. Lane started his career as an Alaskan climbing guide and then as a manual reviewer of AdWords ads before becoming a product specialist at Google and later a Group PM at YouTube. He also writes a weekly newsletter with insights and rituals for PMs, product teams, and startups. In today’s conversation, we discuss:• Principles that set great PMs apart• Rituals of great product teams• The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters• “Two-way write-up”• The story of how skippable YouTube ads were born and lessons learned• How to gauge personal career growth• “Tim Ferriss Day” and its impact on Coda’s history• How Lane bootstrapped his way to CPO from the bottom of the tech ladder
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Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/
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Where to find Lane Shackleton:
• X: https://twitter.com/lshackleton
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton
• Substack: https://lane.substack.com/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Lane’s background
(04:03) Working as a guide in Alaska
(07:32) Parallels between guiding and building software
(09:12) Why Lane started studying and writing about product teams
(12:49) How Lane came up with the career ladder and guiding principles
(14:10) The five levels Coda’s career ladder
(16:30) Principles of great product managers
(21:06) The beginner’s-mind ritual at Coda
(24:05) Two rituals: “cathedrals not bricks” and “proactive not reactive”
(27:46) How to develop your own guiding principles
(31:17) Learning from your “oh s**t” moments
(36:03) Rituals from great product teams: HubSpot’s FlashTags
(42:15) Rituals from great product teams: Coda’s Catalyst
(47:01) Implementing rituals from other companies
(49:48) How to navigate changing vs. sticking with current rituals
(53:02) “Tag up” and why one-on-one meetings are harmful
(55:27) Lane’s handbook on strategy and rituals
(57:10) How skippable ads came about on YouTube
(1:01:46) Lane’s path to CPO
(1:07:02) Advice for aspiring PMs
(1:10:53) Tim Ferriss Day at Coda
(1:13:24) Using two-way write-ups
(1:19:30) The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters
(1:21:41) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Endurance: https://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfred-Lansing/dp/0465062881
• Bret Victor’s talk “Inventing on Principle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGqwXt90ZqA
• Jeremy Britton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremybritton/
• Comedian on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/60024976
• The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472
• The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886
• AlphaZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero
• Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint-Exup%C3%A9ry
• Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling: https://www.amazon.com/Storyworthy-Engage-Persuade-through-Storytelling/dp/1608685489
• The Moth: https://themoth.org/events
• Seth Godin’s website: https://www.sethgodin.com/
• The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph: https://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/dp/1591846358
• Tony Fadell’s TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOMectkCCs
• FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion
• How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product
• 100-dollar voting ritual: https://coda.io/@lshackleton/100-dollar-voting-exercise
• Pixar’s Brain Trust: https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Trust
• Lane’s product handbook: coda.io/producthandbook
• The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir-mehrotra-coda-youtube-microsoft/
• Principle #4: Learn by making, not talking: https://lane.substack.com/p/principle-4-learn-by-making-not-talking
• Phil Farhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philfarhi/
• How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/
• Chip Conley’s website: https://chipconley.com/
• Jeff Bezos Banned PowerPoint in Meetings. His Replacement Is Brilliant: https://www.inc.com/carmine-gallo/jeff-bezos-bans-powerpoint-in-meetings-his-replacement-is-brilliant.html
• Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595
• Dory and Pulse: https://coda.io/@codatemplates/dory-and-pulse
• Turning the Flywheel: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great: https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Flywheel-Monograph-Accompany-Great/dp/0062933795/
• Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636024
• The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance: https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314
• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239
• The Last Dance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144
• Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353
• Stephen Curry: Underrated on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/stephen-curry-underrated/umc.cmc.23v0wxaiwz60bjy1w4vg7npun
• Arrested Development on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70140358
• Shishir’s interview question clip on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lennyrachitsky/video/7160779872296652078
• The Ultimate Reference Check Template: https://coda.io/@startup-hiring/reference-checks-template
• SwingVision: https://swing.tennis/
• Waking Up app: https://www.wakingup.com/
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | moments that you feel uncomfortable in or you find yourself saying like oh shit you know I shouldn't be here I'm under qualified to be here |
| 0:10.0 | Those are the moments you should be seeking out right like those are the moments that |
| 0:13.9 | stretch you and give you sort of like a new foundation so oftentimes you know you'll hear like a career |
| 0:20.6 | question like hey do you feel like you're growing in your role? |
| 0:23.7 | And that's like a very ambiguous in my opinion way to ask this question. |
| 0:27.6 | A much sharper way is like, hey, how many like oh shit moments have you had in the last like six months year two years and what are they? |
| 0:35.3 | I think if you ask yourself that question and the answer is it's been a really long time since I've been |
| 0:40.3 | like stretched in some meaningful way or I've felt like I'm underqualified to be there, then it |
| 0:46.1 | may be worth kind of like digging into. |
| 0:48.0 | Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where you interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-wound experiences building and growing today's most successful products. |
| 0:59.0 | Today, my guest is Lane Shackleton. Lane is Chief Product Officer at Coda, where he's held the role for over eight years. |
| 1:05.6 | Before that, he was Group Product Manager at YouTube, a Product Specialist at Google. |
| 1:09.8 | And as you'll hear, he started his career as an Alaskan Mountain Guide, and then as a manual |
| 1:14.4 | reviewer of Google AdWords ads. Lane is an incredibly deep thinker, very first principles |
| 1:20.0 | oriented, and has built an incredible product team and culture at Coda. |
| 1:24.0 | In part, he's done that by studying the principles and rituals of great product leaders and great product teams. |
| 1:30.0 | In your conversation, Lane shares what he's learned, what he's found, great p.m. and great teams do differently. |
| 1:35.6 | He shares a bunch of his favorite rituals and principals, how you can implement them on your own team, |
| 1:40.3 | plus a really clever and unique way of understanding if you're making progress in your career |
| 1:44.7 | plus so much more I could talk to Lane for hours but we tried to keep this to under an hour and a |
| 1:49.5 | half with that I bring you Lane Shackleton after a short word from our sponsors. |
| 1:54.8 | This episode is brought to you by EPO. |
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