What Next - Why International Law Can’t Stop Trump
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3.9 • 1.1K Ratings
🗓️ 20 April 2026
⏱️ 26 minutes
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Summary
From bombing fishing boats in the Caribbean, to kidnapping Nicolás Maduro, to the Iran War, the Trump administration seems to operate like it has just as much immunity from international law as John Roberts says it has domestically. They’re probably not wrong.
Guest: Philippe Sands, professor of law at University College London,
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Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | It's a little hard to know where we are with the war in the Middle East at the moment, isn't it? |
| 0:12.2 | There are two ceasefires in effect. One covers Iran, the other covers Lebanon. |
| 0:18.1 | As of this recording, there are also two blockades, with Iran keeping most traffic out |
| 0:23.0 | of the Strait of Hormuz and the U.S. stopping Iran's own shipments. Over the weekend, |
| 0:29.6 | President Trump threatened, no more Mr. Nice Guy, posting, again, that he was prepared to bring |
| 0:36.2 | down every bridge and power plant in Iran. |
| 0:40.2 | These missives, which are about war crimes, are so common now. |
| 0:45.7 | It feels repetitive to keep mentioning them. |
| 0:49.5 | But I think you and I, we shouldn't turn away. |
| 0:54.7 | For Philippe Sands, who prosecutes war crimes, these kinds of threats, they're a nightmare. |
| 1:01.2 | When he saw the president's post a couple weeks back about ending an entire civilization at 8 o'clock Eastern on a Tuesday, he did not know how to process it. I mean, I woke up at 3 in the |
| 1:13.5 | morning, London time, to see what had happened, because I actually worried. Did you set an alarm? |
| 1:19.2 | Or your body was just like, I got to get up now and see. You know, I didn't, I couldn't sleep |
| 1:23.5 | well. I slept really badly. And the reason I slept badly was I was actually worried that this guy |
| 1:29.3 | could press the button and send a nuclear warhead into Iran. Trump? Yes. |
| 1:36.5 | If you are getting accused of a war crime or are accusing someone else, |
| 1:40.9 | Philippe is the guy you should call. At one point, Saddam Hussein sought his counsel. |
| 1:45.5 | Philippe represented Croatia when they brought genocide claims against Serbia. He sees international |
| 1:50.8 | law as a valuable tool. Like when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, Philippe proposed the |
| 1:58.0 | International Criminal Court set up a special tribunal on the crime of aggression, and they did. |
| 2:05.2 | But now, he does not have some neat remedy at hand. |
| 2:09.0 | There is an irony that a country like Iran, led by an utterly appalling regime, has effectively come out of this, if not on top, really unbowed. |
... |
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