Just a quick heads up before we get started. There is some adult language in today's episode.

All right, here's the show.

Want to just introduce yourself, tell me who you are and what you do.

My name is Jennifer and I am a tech reporter at The New York Times and the co-author of The Book

and Ugly Truth. Sheerah's book, which she co-wrote with her colleague Cecilia Kong,

is an incredible look inside Facebook at both the company and the people who made it.

Including Cheryl Sandbrook. I actually want to start with a moment from your book, which I have

in front of me. And it is from the 2019 Vanity Fair New Establishment Summit or conference or

whatever it's called. And you and your author, Cecilia Kong, described this scene where Cheryl Sandbrook

is being interviewed by Katie Kirk. I hope everyone had a great lunch in Cheryl. Thank you for being

here. We have a lot to talk about, as you know. So let's get right to it.

And it's like really clear that Sandbrook thinks this is going to be a chatty, friendly, like,

here we all are interview. Do you remember writing about this? I remember vividly, yes.

So Katie Kirk asks her, since you are so associated with Facebook, how worried are you about your

personal legacy as a result of your association with this company? What a question.

Right. Do you remember what she said? Well, I want to say the thing that I love about that moment

is that Sandbrook doesn't see it coming. Katie Kirk is a mom like Sandbrook. She is a woman who has

lost her husband like Sandbrook. And Sandbrook sees her as this ally, which is why she's even

sitting in that chair, making herself vulnerable to this kind of question, right? And you know,

the book doesn't quite capture it, but the look on Sandbrook's face when that question comes is like

a moment of shock and of betrayal and of like, oh, this question from this person,

this woman that is so much like me and should really just be my like target audience for my

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