I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review

podcast. This summer, Madonna, the mega famous singer, dancer, performer, actor, controversy

magnet, celebrated her 65th birthday. Five years ago, for her 60th, the Times put together

a feature titled, 60 times Madonna changed our culture. You should find it and you should

read it because honestly, we probably could have come up with 100 ways. She has lived

the fullest of lives, much of it in the public eye. So it feels appropriate to have an 800

something page biography of Madonna here on my desk. And this week, I speak to Mary Gabriel

author of the book, Madonna, a Rebel Life. Let's turn now to that conversation.

I'm here with Mary Gabriel, author of the Pulitzer Prize finalist love and capital, Carl

and Jenny Marx and the birth of a revolution. 2018's ninth street women, Lee Krasner, Ellen

DeCooning, Grace Hardigan, Joan Mitchell, and Helen Frankenthaler, five painters in

the movement that changed modern arts. And she's here to talk about her new book, Madonna,

a Rebel Life. Mary, welcome to the book review podcast. Thank you very much for having

me. Mary, the subtitle for ninth street women is quite a mouthful. I'm so glad you chose

a short one for your new book. I chose a short subtitle, but I wrote a very long book.

You sure did. And I have questions about that. But, but let's start broad, big picture.

So for a very long time, Madonna was one of the most famous people in the world. Certainly

for multiple generations, I'm in my 40s. So let's say me and, and maybe people slightly

younger. And certainly for everyone older, she, she was omnipresent. Why was this the

book that you needed to right now following ninth street women?

It's a very neat timeline, if you think about it, because that book ended in 1959. And

Madonna was born in 1958. And when I started this, that wasn't the reason I did it. I wanted

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