For a closer look at training for ICE agents and what we know, I'm joined now by Juliet

Kayam, former Assistant Secretary at the Department of Homeland Security. She's now at the Harvard

Kennedy School. Juliet, welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.

So as you see, there's competing narratives now on whether or not the ICE agent was justified in

using deadly force here. There are federal

guidelines, standardized training of some kind. Walk us through what those guidelines and the

training shows when it comes to the use of deadly force. Okay, so the Department of Homeland Security

is guided or their agents are guided by rules and protocols regarding engagement with the community.

So the number one priority is no loss of life. That is in their, that is in DHS's own regulations.

The second is de-escalation. We've heard that word a lot lately, which is it's the responsibility

of the law enforcement agent to ensure that they do not put themselves in a position in which there is imminent danger.

There are all sorts of caveats and qualifications, but as a general rule, police officers and law enforcement do not shoot into moving cars, do not put themselves in front of cars, because those are things

that are easily de-escalated. The car, you can get the license plate, you know where the person

likely lives at that stage. And so these rules guide both federal law enforcement and most state

and local law enforcement.

And that is why the videos are raising so many significant concerns about that interaction,

that moment in which a federal law enforcement officer, the ICE agent, is engaged with a civilian who may or may not have known

what they were expecting of her. I just want to add for your audience, because the politics of this

are quite loud. The way it's talked about now is as if use of force is on and on or off switch, right?

Like someone didn't comply use of force, right?

It doesn't work that way.

Most good law enforcement and training, you would think about use of force as sort of a dimmer up and down.

...