You and Betty and the nancy's and bills and joes and james will find in the study of science a richer, more rewarding life.

Welcome to Inquiring Minds. I'm Indravis Gontas. This is a podcast that explores the space where science and society collide.

We want to find out what's true, what's left to discover,

and why it matters. This week's guest is no stranger to listeners of inquiring minds. Carl Zimmer

is a celebrated science columnist,

especially at the New York Times, but also at other places, including the National Geographic

and the Atlantic. And we've had him on the show to talk about viruses in episode 127,

and then back in 2018 to talk about his book on genetics called She Has Her Mother's Laugh.

He's been doing an exceptional job covering the COVID-19 pandemic, but somehow he also managed to take some time out to finish his latest book, Life's Edge, The Search for What It Means to Be Alive.

Carl Zimmer, welcome back to Inquiring Minds.

Thanks for having me.

You know, the last time we chatted on this podcast,

we actually touched a little bit about the topic of your latest book,

Life's Edge, this question of whether a virus is alive. And I thought it would be fun to sort of

pick up where we left off. You know, in your research on this book, have you come closer to

making a decision on whether we or scientists or you, Carl Zimmer, think that a virus is alive? I have to say that as a writer,

I just love watching the fight unfold. I see myself as really a chronicler of this long-running debate, which honestly shows no sign of ending.

So not long after viruses were discovered and people started to realize what they were made of,

they realized, oh, this is kind of like life as we know it, but kind of not.

And so some people said, well, obviously it's not alive and other people said it was.

And, you know, I the other day got an email from a scientist who told me, of course, viruses are alive and anybody you ask,

who's an expert in this would tell you that. And then that afternoon I got another email saying

...