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I'm Caleb Brown.

Where does the evidence lie on the so-called lab leak theory as the origin of COVID-19? Matt Ridley is co-author of the new book,

Viral, The Search for the Origin of COVID-19.

We spoke last week.

I guess I want to start with the most salient point to me right now which is what difference does it make

if we know the origin is this versus that at this point to a lot of people I don't think it seems very important at all.

Yeah I'm puzzled that people say that I think it matters a lot.

For a start we need to know so that we can prevent the next pandemic. I mean if this

pandemic began as a result of a particular aspect of the food trade then that's very helpful for us in preventing the next pandemic.

If it began as a result of an accident in a laboratory, then we need to think really hard about how to regulate practices in laboratories. And also there's another reason we need to know because, you know, bad actors are watching this and saying wow you know there's a lot of

disruption in the world as a result of a very small problem that's started as very

...