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Hello and welcome to Coffee House Shots. I'm O Lucy Dunn and today I'm joined by Tim Shipman

and James Orr, Associate Professor at the University of Cambridge and on the chair of the think tank

the Centre for Better Britain. This morning, Reform hosted its third press conference in as many

weeks on Lawless Britain's crime crackdown campaign that it's having over a six-week period.

Tim, you were actually there this morning. There was an announcement about its latest defector.

Can you tell us who this was and what the significance of this move is?

Yeah, so this is Rupert Matthews, who's the Tory Police and Crime Commissioner for Leicestershire.

He's jump ship, and I think that means it's reforms first PCC.

So they're on the board there and clocking up the defections, which are coming, you know,

pretty much weekly at the moment from the Conservative Party, trying to keep their momentum going.

And then talking, you know, more about what they call Lawless Britain, which is a campaign that, you know, is doing quite well, I think.

It's quite a coherent thing.

And making some interesting announcements.

And also on the panel today, and who is joining their sort of policy group on crime and disorder,

is Vanessa Freak, who was a former prison governor.

She was in charge of looking after people like Rose West.

She was the security officer at Wemwood Scrubs with cleaned up D-Wing there, which was, you know, by her own description, the worst of the worst, a place with a massive drugs problem and all the rest of it.

And she was talking about sort of a pretty

tough regime. She talked about supermax wings in British prisons, perhaps not supermax prisons,

...