Hello and welcome to the political orphanage, a home for people who think freely, think differently, and think hard.

I'm your host Andrew Heaton, and I had a blast on today's interview. Dr. Fuller is a fun guest. He's very smart, but he's one of those

guests that'll joke around with me. I liked him, my favorite kind of interview. And on top of that, what we're discussing is one of my absolute

favorite subjects which is a new way a different way to look at politics

outside of the left right spectrum.

I think the left right spectrum is reductive and usually wrong and I we've got whole

episodes on it in the past I'm not going to elaborate on that point but I'm always

looking for different ways to try to look at politics and Dr. Fuller is going to walk us

through his paradigm, upwingers, and downwingers.

And to wet your appetite a bit on today's program, George W Bush, the Green Party and the Pope are on one side of that spectrum about to be described,

whereas Elon Musk, Ray Kurtzweil and government technocrats are on the other.

It's a whole different way of thinking of organizing the political landscape and it's what we're

talking about on today's program. Now before we jump in I do want to

give you a listening recommendation that will help you get the most out of the

interview. We have been so conditioned to think of everything as left

versus right, blue versus red, that almost everybody reflexively tries to translate any new system into that.

So you listen for a minute and you go,

okay, I figured out who the Conservatives are.

So I want you to fight that urge.

You're gonna have a moment today.

I had a moment today and I had to suppress it where you go,

uh-huh, okay, all right, I know who the conservatives are, I know who the progressives are.

...