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all with our trademark, irreverence, and love.

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That's Artisan Books.com, discount code,

unorthodox, all caps. really an episode of unorthodox.

This week I'm playing for you a conversation that was recorded a few months ago

between two of my favorite people in the whole world.

One is Lialibovitz, whom you know well, my co-host, my fellow host on Unorthodox, and the author of numerous books, including a great book about Leonard Cohen, the songwriter and singer, and a forthcoming book about Stan Lee, the comic book artist.

Leal is one of those guys who can do it all.

Another guy who can do it all, another favorite person of mine,

is Jay Michelson, who is a rabbi and Jewish religious spiritual teacher.

His new book is called Enlightenment by Trial and

error. It has the egregiously long subtitle, 10 years on the slippery slopes of

Jewish spirituality, postmodern Buddhism, and other spiritual heresies. He earns his

honest paycheck working at the company 10% happier which makes a

leading meditation app but anyway that's not really what matters that's not

what matters what matters here is they are two people who had never met each other have radically

...