Support for On Being with Christa Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute, helping build the

spiritual foundation for a loving world. Fetzer envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding

principle and animating force for our lives. A powerful love that helps us live in sacred

relationship with ourselves, others, and the natural world. Learn more by visiting Fetzer.org.

I'm Christa Tippett. Up next, my unedited conversation with Karen Murphy of Facing History

and ourselves. We are taking the long view and a time of lightning rod milestones, and we've

also launched Experience Poetry at On Being.org as a further place for solace and sanity.

Short form and deep dives get tethered, be recharged. And as always, you'll find a shorter and

beautifully produced version of this hour's conversation wherever you found the On Being podcast.

Hi, Christa. Hi, Karen. It's so good to meet you. It's so good to meet you.

So Zach, do you need us to get levels? Or that doesn't really work here. Does it

with this new situation? Now I can't hear you. I see your mouth moving.

We don't need to do. Okay. Okay. All right. By the way, the window back here behind me is

right covering your face. Yeah. So if you're trying to get just exactly where you're sitting,

if you're trying to get my attention, do that. Okay. All right. Karen, I'm so welcome. Welcome to

On Being. Thank you. I actually feel I feel like saying that today because I'm sitting in the

studio. And I can't remember last time I did something. Wow. That's wonderful. Yeah. So normally,

I have recently I've been in my basement in a makeshift quite cozy now, but makeshift setup.

And I kind of feel I feel like this is so huge what we're going to talk about. And I have all

these notes in front of me, but I also trust that that will go to all the places we need to go.

Yeah. And I have notes on my floor and my notebook. And yes, look at that. Okay.

So so you you were born in Michigan and you lived in Flint, Michigan. Did you

...