Hello there. This is Mark Bauerline with another conversation.

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Frank Furetti has been with us before. He is a social scientist and very prominent social

commentator who has written more than 25 books. The new volume is The Road to Ukraine,

how the West lost its way. That is our topic today. Welcome, Frank.

We're on a first name basis, I think. I think we've been on twice before. We've had lunch together.

So there we are. Thank you for joining us. Pleasure, Mark. First, let me ask a historical question, which you raise in your preface.

You are Hungarian.

What is the meaning or status of Ukraine to people in Eastern Europe, which may be quite different

from how Ukraine appears to Americans.

Well, you know, Hungarians and other East Europeans are used to states and nations having

...