body language in awkward podcast is everything but that's not going to happen in

this conversation David French no no no awkward body language at all. From New York Times opinion, I'm Ross Dauthit.

And this is a very special episode of matter of opinion.

It's very special because we're doing something

it's very special because we'll be doing something a little different today.

It's just me as the host with as my guest, my fellow columnist, and fellow religious conservative David French.

David, thanks so much for joining matter of opinion.

Thanks so much for hosting me Ross, I really appreciate it.

It's my pleasure, or at least it is at the outset. We'll see

how things end up at the end because you recently wrote a column that

attracted a lot of attention not just from New York Times readers, but from all

different kinds of American Conservatives. The piece argued basically that the best way to save conservatism and even to save the pro-life movement

is to cast a vote for Kamala Harris in the 2024 election.

And just to give listeners a little background,

you and I have both been the kind of conservative

who was dismayed and appalled by the rise of Donald Trump to leadership in the

Republican Party. I know that you briefly kicked around the idea of running

against Trump as an independent candidate in 2016.

Is that something that happened Ross?

I, that's all a blur to me.

Someone at least kicked around this idea.

And I think it's very likely that had you mounted such a candidacy

...