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This is the Tom Harbin Program.

God in the line with us is Katrina Van Hovel, the editorial director and publisher of the Nation

magazine, TheNation.com is the website also writes a weekly column for the Washington Post.

Katrina's Twitter handle is Katrina Nation or at the Nation.

And Katrina, welcome back to the program and you've got a piece by Tariq Ali in the current issue

of the Nation, I believe it is, is absolutely brilliant. The war on terror, 20 years of bloodshed and delusion.

You are such an astute observer of the political scene, not just in the United States, but around the world.

I'm wondering your take on this apparent repudiation

of stupid, unnecessary, lied us into kinds of wars and long-term occupations that we seem to

be backing away from, but maybe not.

You know, Tom, the Nation was founded in 1865 by abolitionists and if there's one cross

thread throughout the history of the Nation, it is the belief that military misadventures abroad,

occupation of countries, we don't know their history, we have no right to remake their country,

doesn't lead to a real democracy at home.

And I think that on this 20th anniversary of 9-11, the ability to have a reckoning without vengeance,

...