Strong men built the West and won the wars and built the building that we're in right now.

And without strong men, then you all of a sudden see civilization unfold upon itself.

And we're seeing that happen in real time.

It's Friday, September 19, 2025, and welcome back to Goodfellows, a Hoover Institution broadcast examining social, economic, political, and geopolitical concerns.

I'm Bill Whalen. I'm a Hoover Distinguished Policy Fellow. I'll be your moderator today.

Looking forward to a spirit conversation with the three gentlemen we jokingly refer to as our Goodfellows.

That would be, of course, the historian, Sir Neil Ferguson, the economist John Cochran and former Presidential National

Security Advisor, Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. Neil John and H.R. are Hoover's senior fellows.

So gentlemen, you've all been busy, even busier by your normally busy standards. It's the last time

we convened. The three of you actually met in London not too long ago on some Hoover business.

If I can get the travel straight here, then I think John and HR peeled off and went to Berlin after that.

Neil, meanwhile, headed to Kiev for his, for I believe, a security conference, Neil, if I'm not mistaken.

Let's start with Kiev, Neil.

So not the first time you've been to that country since the war broke out, now 43 months ago, incredibly enough.

I'm curious, Neil, as to what has changed at all since the last time you were there.

This is my fourth visit to Kiev in wartime.

I'd been there many times before.

But the striking thing was that the war is so much more a part of life in the capital city than it was previously, because

this year has seen a huge escalation in Russian air strikes on all Ukrainian cities, but including

Kiev. And these are drone strikes, but also strikes with cruise missiles.

They're now happening pretty much nightly.

I know this because you have to download an app to warn you of air raids.

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