Thank you for joining us today for this conversation on the Sword and the Trowel. Today, Pastor Tom and I talk to our good friend Alex Kochman, who has written this new book, Ordered to Love. You can find it at Founderspress.org. You have this conversation about the Ordo Omorest and some of the ways in which it influences us on a day-to-day basis, and then also some big ideas about how it affects the way that we think about missions and nationalism and patriotism

and other things as well. So I hope it's a helpful conversation for you. Take a listen.

Welcome to The Sword and the Trial. The Sword and the Trial is a podcast of founders' ministries.

And founders exist for the recovery of the gospel and the reformation of local churches. I'm

Graham Gundin. I'm Tom Askell.

Today's episode is brought to you by Lake Yale Baptist Conference Center.

Today we have on, again, a return guest.

I think Alex, this is your third or fourth time with us on the podcast.

Alex Kochman, he is the director of communications at ABWE, and he's also the host of the

mission show. He's an elder at Faith

Bible Fellowship Church as well, and so we want to talk with Alex about one of his new books

with us, I think his third title with us, and that is Ordered to Love on the Ordo Amoris.

So thank you for joining us today, Alex. Yeah, it's good to be here speaking Speaking with my fellow author of a book on the Ordo Amoris, right, Graham? Fellow, fellow author from the same publisher. Yes, that's right. Yeah, we ought to mention, Graham, your booklet that grew out of a message, I think, that you preach, an article you wrote. But tell us about your booklet, the title of it,

and then we're going to jump in and have Alex talk about his book. Yeah, if you want to wet your appetite, maybe get a little appetizer before you dive into Alex's book. I wrote a little short booklets, like, I don't know, 20 some pages on the order of Morris. It's called The Joys of Properly ordered love. It did come out of a teaching that I did at church and especially thinking about the

objectivity. is called The Joys of Properly Ordered Love. It did come out of a teaching that I did at church,

and especially thinking about the objectivity of goodness

and the things that we ought to love.

We're not just open to love whatever we want,

however we want to love it,

but actually that's determined by God how we ought to love things.

So I think it would be well worth your time.

Yeah, and Alex, I think the Genesis

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