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The Ezra Klein Show

Trump Is Building the Blue Scare

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 24 September 2025

⏱️ 87 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

This is McCarthyism 2.0. Since Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the Trump administration has been speed-running an attack on the “radical left.” And the tactics it has been using are darkly reminiscent of the Red Scare of the 1940s and ’50s. So what can that period teach us about the current moment and what the Trump administration might do next? How far could this go? Corey Robin is a political theorist at Brooklyn College. He’s an expert on McCarthyism and the author of the book “The Reactionary Mind,” one of the most insightful books you can read on the Trumpist right. In this conversation, he walks through what happened in the first and second Red Scares and what made him start worrying about the Trump administration. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Red Scare by Clay Risen “How Democrats Drove Silicon Valley Into Trump’s Arms” by Ross Douthat The Furies by Arno J. Mayer Book Recommendations: On the Slaughter by Hayim Nahman Bialik Naming Names by Victor S. Navasky Citizen Marx by Bruno Leipold Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick and Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Kelsey Kudak. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Beverly Gage and Clay Risen.

Transcript

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0:00.0

The

0:07.0

The In the hours and days after Charlie Kirk's murder, there was discussion on social media

0:37.2

about whether this would be America's Reichstag fire.

0:41.1

A reference to the fire that was part of, that was a rationale for, Hitler's crackdown on political freedom in Germany.

0:49.7

Many of us were worried hearing that, and I think what we've seen since suggests that the fears were right.

0:55.2

But the analogy, the analogy was wrong.

0:58.2

We should have been looking closer to home.

1:00.8

This isn't a Reichstag fire.

1:02.8

This is more like the Red Scare.

1:05.5

We often think of the Red Scare in terms of McCarthyism, named for Joseph McCarthy, its most enthusiastic and effective

1:12.1

practitioner. But it was a lot more than that. The Red Scare's basic structure was to define a

1:18.2

political enemy that could not be compromised with. The point was to use that charge that this enemy

1:24.2

was everywhere, that it posed an existential threat to America, that its tentacles had to be chopped off everywhere they could be found, to go after a very wide swath of your political opponents, to do so using state power, to do so using cultural power, to do so by intimidating employers.

1:41.7

What we are seeing now is a blue scare. In this, the Trump administration

1:46.8

is not even being remotely subtle about what it intends, how wide a net they want the blue

1:53.1

scare to cast. Just listen to Vice President J.D. Vance. We're trying to figure out how to prevent

1:59.7

this festering violence that you see on the far left from becoming even more and more mainstream.

2:04.6

A lot of people are very worried about how we got here in the first place.

2:08.6

And you have the crazies on the far left who are saying, oh, Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance, they're going to go after constitutionally protected speech.

2:15.6

And no, no, we're going to go after the NGO network that fomence, facilitates, and engages in violence.

2:23.6

But the Red Scare took decades to build.

2:26.0

It had at its heart a genuine foreign adversary and real domestic espionage.

...

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